The entry competence level for graphics programmers

[Tommy Brett]

Hello ladies and gents,

I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
language and OpenGL.

I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.

On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.

- Tommy

[Cory Riddell]

Tommy,

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact up to par as I
> understand that graphics programming positions in particular are highly
> competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using
> shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still
> using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade),
> and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using
> the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics
> programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>
>
Are you a gambler? Unless you have been living under a rock for the past
couple of weeks, I'm sure you've seen plenty of information about Metro and
WinRT and how they are DirectX only. These kinds of big resets don't come
along that often, but when they do, there's a big opportunity to get out in
front of the new technology. The gamble is that you might get out in front
and find that there's nobody behind you. :)

I totally expect to see job listings asking for 3-5 years experience with
Metro and WinRT to start popping up.

Cory

[Tom Nettleship]

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming language and OpenGL.

If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
experience shipping products in that role.

> For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.

I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
principles.

TomN

[James Robertson]

Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...

A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be considered a senior in the games industry.

:)


Tom Nettleship wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming language and OpenGL.
>
> If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
> understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
> you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
> role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
> experience shipping products in that role.
>
>> For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>
> I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
> code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
> tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
> time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
> knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
> principles.
>
> TomN
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>

[Hegarty, Joe]

That does sound pretty bitter. Though I do agree that at smaller independent studios it's true, as it's often the only thing they can offer people, a shiny new title.

I also agree with Tom, showing you have a firm understanding of the theory and are enthusiastic is far more important that experience in certain technologies. That's true for all roles, not just graphics.
Showing you are actively learning these new technologies would be great as well, some pet projects go a long way.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com [mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of James Robertson
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:13 PM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers

Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...

A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be considered a senior in the games industry.

:)


Tom Nettleship wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming language and OpenGL.
>
> If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
> understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
> you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
> role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
> experience shipping products in that role.
>
>> For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>
> I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
> code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
> tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
> time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
> knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
> principles.
>
> TomN
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>

[Tommy Brett]

Pet projects are definitely my forte, spending a day shouting at Flash as
once again I trace a bug further down the scope chain than there is source
code is turning my hair grey, the only way to prevent hair loss is to go
home and work on my pet terrain renderer till 3 in the morning. On that
tangent, what do you guys use for debugging shaders? My solution of simply
changing the colour output for a given vertex or fragment upon encountering
an unexpected situation in the shader seems remarkably low-tech, and should
probably not ever be mentioned at an interview. "So how do you track down
errors in your shader?" "don't make them in the first place?"

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Hegarty, Joe <***@bioware.com> wrote:

> That does sound pretty bitter. Though I do agree that at smaller
> independent studios it's true, as it's often the only thing they can offer
> people, a shiny new title.
>
> I also agree with Tom, showing you have a firm understanding of the theory
> and are enthusiastic is far more important that experience in certain
> technologies. That's true for all roles, not just graphics.
> Showing you are actively learning these new technologies would be great as
> well, some pet projects go a long way.
>
> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com [mailto:
> sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of James
> Robertson
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:13 PM
> To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
> Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
> programmers
>
> Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...
>
> A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be
> considered a senior in the games industry.
>
> :)
>
>
> Tom Nettleship wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer,
> my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
> language and OpenGL.
> >
> > If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
> > understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
> > you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
> > role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
> > experience shipping products in that role.
> >
> >> For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader
> functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP
> machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I
> suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU
> would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer
> role that paid more than free lunches.
> >
> > I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
> > code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
> > tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
> > time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
> > knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
> > principles.
> >
> > TomN
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> > Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> >
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>

[Gregory Junker]

For debugging shaders, I use PIX (comes with the DirectX SDK). You'll need
to be using Direct3D for that, of course.



Regarding "low-tech": When you are trying to track down a nasty bug that
happens only in the final build for the Wii, and it's 18 hours before you
need to ship the game to the publisher, sometimes changing colors or
emitting special sounds is the only way to get it done. So don't be
surprised at how often "low-tech" solutions get the title shipped. ;)


Greg



From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:33 AM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers



On that tangent, what do you guys use for debugging shaders? My solution of
simply changing the colour output for a given vertex or fragment upon
encountering an unexpected situation in the shader seems remarkably
low-tech, and should probably not ever be mentioned at an interview. "So how
do you track down errors in your shader?" "don't make them in the first
place?"

[Hegarty, Joe]

General:
For DX stuff - PIX - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee417062%28v=VS.85%29.aspx
For GL Stuff - gDEBugger - http://www.gremedy.com/

Nvidia Hardware:
Nvidia Nsight - http://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-parallel-nsight
Nvidia perfhud for older stuff - http://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-perfhud

I assume AMD/ATI have similar tools but I haven't used them.

That list is probably a good start.

Joe

From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com [mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:33 PM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers

Pet projects are definitely my forte, spending a day shouting at Flash as once again I trace a bug further down the scope chain than there is source code is turning my hair grey, the only way to prevent hair loss is to go home and work on my pet terrain renderer till 3 in the morning. On that tangent, what do you guys use for debugging shaders? My solution of simply changing the colour output for a given vertex or fragment upon encountering an unexpected situation in the shader seems remarkably low-tech, and should probably not ever be mentioned at an interview. "So how do you track down errors in your shader?" "don't make them in the first place?"
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Hegarty, Joe <***@bioware.com<mailto:***@bioware.com>> wrote:
That does sound pretty bitter. Though I do agree that at smaller independent studios it's true, as it's often the only thing they can offer people, a shiny new title.

I also agree with Tom, showing you have a firm understanding of the theory and are enthusiastic is far more important that experience in certain technologies. That's true for all roles, not just graphics.
Showing you are actively learning these new technologies would be great as well, some pet projects go a long way.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com<mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com> [mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com<mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com>] On Behalf Of James Robertson
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:13 PM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com<mailto:sweng-***@midnightryder.com>
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers

Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...

A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be considered a senior in the games industry.

:)


Tom Nettleship wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming language and OpenGL.
>
> If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
> understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
> you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
> role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
> experience shipping products in that role.
>
>> For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>
> I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
> code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
> tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
> time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
> knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
> principles.
>
> TomN
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com<mailto:Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>

[Tommy Brett]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I actually wasn't aware of much of the goings on in the windows 8 world or
WinRT beyond the new interface, but after spending my lunch reading about it
it I'm interested, as long as c# is always an option over JS.

The reason I asked about the differentiation between junior and not, is that
if I do get into the games industry, I can't afford to be on a lower wage
than I am currently, and having spent no time at all on shipped video game
products (but oh so much on fancy flash sites for companies with even
fancier budgets) I really need as many cards as possible in my hand.

The other option of course would be to release my own little game on XBLA,
XB Indie or Steam. However I've already spent this year's holiday time!

- Tommy

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:12 PM, James Robertson <***@osodata.com> wrote:

> Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...
>
> A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be
> considered a senior in the games industry.
>
> :)
>
>
>
> Tom Nettleship wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer,
>>> my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
>>> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
>>> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
>>> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
>>> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
>>> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
>>> language and OpenGL.
>>>
>>
>> If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
>> understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
>> you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
>> role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
>> experience shipping products in that role.
>>
>> For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader
>>> functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP
>>> machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I
>>> suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU
>>> would swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer
>>> role that paid more than free lunches.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
>> code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
>> tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
>> time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
>> knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
>> principles.
>>
>> TomN
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>> Sweng-***@lists.**midnightryder.com<Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
>> http://lists.midnightryder.**com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-**
>> gamedev-midnightryder.com<http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.**midnightryder.com<Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
> http://lists.midnightryder.**com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-**
> gamedev-midnightryder.com<http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com>
>

[Gregory Junker]

Unfortunately, having had no experience in the games industry, you will most
likely start at a junior level, even if it's just probationary. Games are no
different than any other industry; if you have had no practical experience
in an industry, you don't get to jump in at the mid- to high-level spots.



As an example, if you had no experience at all in commercial
banking/finance, would you expect JP Morgan to let you start as an
investment banker because you do some stock trading on the side?



TBH, you probably need more than just holiday time to learn graphics
programming at any level that would be attractive to most game studios.


Greg



From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:24 AM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers



Thanks for the replies guys,



I actually wasn't aware of much of the goings on in the windows 8 world or
WinRT beyond the new interface, but after spending my lunch reading about it
it I'm interested, as long as c# is always an option over JS.



The reason I asked about the differentiation between junior and not, is that
if I do get into the games industry, I can't afford to be on a lower wage
than I am currently, and having spent no time at all on shipped video game
products (but oh so much on fancy flash sites for companies with even
fancier budgets) I really need as many cards as possible in my hand.



The other option of course would be to release my own little game on XBLA,
XB Indie or Steam. However I've already spent this year's holiday time!



- Tommy

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:12 PM, James Robertson <***@osodata.com> wrote:

Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...

A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be
considered a senior in the games industry.

:)




Tom Nettleship wrote:

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:

I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
language and OpenGL.


If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
experience shipping products in that role.

For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions
built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine
(GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that
not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly
kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid
more than free lunches.


I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
principles.

TomN

[Tommy Brett]

Agreed, but on the other hand, programming experience and coding practices
are somewhat transferable between roles, and I've certainly participated in
all the usual aspects of launching a product, including source control,
dealing with clients and the "it HAS to be done by 8.30am tomorrow" bits. I
certainly wouldn't be applying for a job at the JP Morgan of games studios,
but I would be hoping to get some monetary recognition for the fact that I'm
not simply fresh out of University.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Gregory Junker <***@dayark.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately, having had no experience in the games industry, you will
> most likely start at a junior level, even if it’s just probationary. Games
> are no different than any other industry; if you have had no practical
> experience in an industry, you don’t get to jump in at the mid- to
> high-level spots. ****
>
> ** **
>
> As an example, if you had no experience at all in commercial
> banking/finance, would you expect JP Morgan to let you start as an
> investment banker because you do some stock trading on the side?****
>
> ** **
>
> TBH, you probably need more than just holiday time to learn graphics
> programming at any level that would be attractive to most game studios. *
> ***
>
>
> Greg****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com [mailto:
> sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] *On Behalf Of *Tommy Brett
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:24 AM
>
> *To:* sweng-***@midnightryder.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
> programmers****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks for the replies guys,****
>
> ** **
>
> I actually wasn't aware of much of the goings on in the windows 8 world or
> WinRT beyond the new interface, but after spending my lunch reading about it
> it I'm interested, as long as c# is always an option over JS.****
>
> ** **
>
> The reason I asked about the differentiation between junior and not, is
> that if I do get into the games industry, I can't afford to be on a lower
> wage than I am currently, and having spent no time at all on shipped video
> game products (but oh so much on fancy flash sites for companies with even
> fancier budgets) I really need as many cards as possible in my hand.****
>
> ** **
>
> The other option of course would be to release my own little game on XBLA,
> XB Indie or Steam. However I've already spent this year's holiday time!***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> - Tommy****
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:12 PM, James Robertson <***@osodata.com>
> wrote:****
>
> Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...
>
> A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be
> considered a senior in the games industry.
>
> :)****
>
>
>
>
> Tom Nettleship wrote:****
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> ****
>
> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
> career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
> language and OpenGL.****
>
>
> If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
> understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
> you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
> role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
> experience shipping products in that role.****
>
> For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions
> built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine
> (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that
> not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly
> kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid
> more than free lunches.****
>
>
> I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
> code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
> tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
> time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
> knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
> principles.
>
> TomN
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
> ****
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>

[Gregory Junker]

What you need to understand is that the studios most likely to give you
"monetary recognition" for "related software development experience" are the
ones most likely to go under within a year. These studios are desperate for
*anyone* to apply for their open positions. If you can't afford that level
of instability, you may be restricted to the "JP Morgan" of games
development. But even then, you aren't guaranteed a long tenure - large,
well-funded operations can suddenly decide to lay everyone off without
notice (*cough* LucasArts *cough*).



You also need to understand that to any games studio worth working for, you
*are* essentially fresh out of university. 5 years of professional C++
programming (and you didn't mention if you had any C++, btw - expect lots of
technical questions about C and C++) might get you an interview, but it's
not going to get you above junior level (if only probationary) if you've
never had a professional games programming position.


Greg



From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:15 AM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers



Agreed, but on the other hand, programming experience and coding practices
are somewhat transferable between roles, and I've certainly participated in
all the usual aspects of launching a product, including source control,
dealing with clients and the "it HAS to be done by 8.30am tomorrow" bits. I
certainly wouldn't be applying for a job at the JP Morgan of games studios,
but I would be hoping to get some monetary recognition for the fact that I'm
not simply fresh out of University.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Gregory Junker <***@dayark.com> wrote:

Unfortunately, having had no experience in the games industry, you will most
likely start at a junior level, even if it's just probationary. Games are no
different than any other industry; if you have had no practical experience
in an industry, you don't get to jump in at the mid- to high-level spots.



As an example, if you had no experience at all in commercial
banking/finance, would you expect JP Morgan to let you start as an
investment banker because you do some stock trading on the side?



TBH, you probably need more than just holiday time to learn graphics
programming at any level that would be attractive to most game studios.


Greg



From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:24 AM


To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers



Thanks for the replies guys,



I actually wasn't aware of much of the goings on in the windows 8 world or
WinRT beyond the new interface, but after spending my lunch reading about it
it I'm interested, as long as c# is always an option over JS.



The reason I asked about the differentiation between junior and not, is that
if I do get into the games industry, I can't afford to be on a lower wage
than I am currently, and having spent no time at all on shipped video game
products (but oh so much on fancy flash sites for companies with even
fancier budgets) I really need as many cards as possible in my hand.



The other option of course would be to release my own little game on XBLA,
XB Indie or Steam. However I've already spent this year's holiday time!



- Tommy

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:12 PM, James Robertson <***@osodata.com> wrote:

Not that I'm jaded and bitter or anything, but...

A couple of years experience seems to be all you need these days to be
considered a senior in the games industry.

:)




Tom Nettleship wrote:

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:

I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
language and OpenGL.


If you've got general programming experience, decent C/C++, an
understanding of lower level coding & knowledge of OpenGL/DirectX
you're already skilled enough to do a junior graphics programming
role. The only thing stopping you from a non-junior role would be
experience shipping products in that role.

For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is using shader functions
built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me still using an XP machine
(GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that
not being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly
kill any application I would make for a graphics programmer role that paid
more than free lunches.


I don't think lack of a knowledge of a (rarely used in production
code) GPU feature matters at all. I've never used hardware
tesselation. DX11 (less so 10) experience would give you an easier
time of it, but not much compared to being able to demonstrate
knowledge and enthusiasm about general graphics programming
principles.

TomN
_______________________________________________
Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com

[Gregory Junker]

Graphics programming is about geometry and lighting. Graphics APIs are
simply for getting information about both to the graphics hardware for
rendering, so if you know how to use one of them, it's a small step (~1-2
weeks of experimenting on the side) to being productive with all of them (I
am counting DX9 and DX11 as separate APIs here).



More important than what APIs you know, will be:



. Are you, if not fluent, at least familiar with, linear algebra and
computational geometry?

. Have you any experience with optimizing rendering performance? Can
you at least root-cause graphics performance bottlenecks?

. How does shadowing work, and what experience have you had with
shadowing algorithms?

. Can you explain (with reasonable detail) the graphics rendering
pipeline?



If you don't have acceptable answers to the above, don't expect to do well
in the interview, because you *will* be asked questions about them.



Regarding shader programming, you will want to have had practical experience
with programming non-trivial shaders from scratch (meaning, not copied from
a text or from the web), and you'll probably want to have examples of same,
and be able to explain what they are doing and why you chose (a) particular
coding construct(s).



Greg



From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:33 AM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers



Hello ladies and gents,



I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
language and OpenGL.



I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say,
tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make
for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.



On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.



- Tommy

[Gregory Junker]

One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to gain
industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you mentioned that
you can't afford a salary decrease, then you probably can't afford an
unstable situation either (which is what most small independent studios will
be, and the ones most likely to hire anyone who sounds like they might know
something about games).



So have you looked at Zynga?



http://www.zynga.com/jobs/



A surprising number of people I have worked with in the past in various
studios have landed there, and it's quite stable. Spend some time at Zynga,
get some industry experience on your resume, and work on your "areas for
improvement" in your spare time like you are now.



One thing to bear in mind, is that any studio who is looking for a graphics
programmer above junior/entry level, is likely doing so because their
current graphics programmer, who is almost certainly rather senior, is
leaving, and they need someone to replace him/her. Therefore, you may need
to set your sights either a bit lower, or on a different target.or choose a
different strategy. It's much easier to get into a games studio as a
gameplay programmer than it is a graphics programmer, and working somewhere
like Zynga can get you demonstrable industry gameplay experience. The
hardest part about getting into games, is actually getting into games; once
in, you're in.



Greg



From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:33 AM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers



Hello ladies and gents,



I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
language and OpenGL.



I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say,
tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make
for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.



On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.



- Tommy

[Tommy Brett]

An interesting and informative angle, I did pitch the idea of doing some
games to my current employer but they're largely inexperienced with
developing games, and aren't really willing to take the risk. Perhaps flash
games programming would be the way to get my foot in the door.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Gregory Junker <***@dayark.com> wrote:

> One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to gain
> industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you mentioned that
> you can’t afford a salary decrease, then you probably can’t afford an
> unstable situation either (which is what most small independent studios will
> be, and the ones most likely to hire anyone who sounds like they might know
> something about games). ****
>
> ** **
>
> So have you looked at Zynga? ****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.zynga.com/jobs/****
>
> ** **
>
> A surprising number of people I have worked with in the past in various
> studios have landed there, and it’s quite stable. Spend some time at Zynga,
> get some industry experience on your resume, and work on your “areas for
> improvement” in your spare time like you are now. ****
>
> ** **
>
> One thing to bear in mind, is that any studio who is looking for a graphics
> programmer above junior/entry level, is likely doing so because their
> current graphics programmer, who is almost certainly rather senior, is
> leaving, and they need someone to replace him/her. Therefore, you may need
> to set your sights either a bit lower, or on a different target…or choose a
> different strategy. It’s much easier to get into a games studio as a
> gameplay programmer than it is a graphics programmer, and working somewhere
> like Zynga can get you demonstrable industry gameplay experience. The
> hardest part about getting into games, is actually getting into games; once
> in, you’re in.****
>
> ** **
>
> Greg****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com [mailto:
> sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] *On Behalf Of *Tommy Brett
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:33 AM
> *To:* sweng-***@midnightryder.com
> *Subject:* [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
> programmers****
>
> ** **
>
> Hello ladies and gents,****
>
> ** **
>
> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
> career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
> language and OpenGL. ****
>
> ** **
>
> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
> level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
> something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
> omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
> level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
> routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
> job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
> up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
> using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
> still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
> upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
> say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
> make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches. ****
>
> ** **
>
> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
> out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.****
>
> ** **
>
> - Tommy****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>

[Gregory Junker]

And the nice thing about Zynga is you have direct experience in their core
programming language/platform, so you probably would enter there above
junior level. J


Greg



From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:19 AM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers



An interesting and informative angle, I did pitch the idea of doing some
games to my current employer but they're largely inexperienced with
developing games, and aren't really willing to take the risk. Perhaps flash
games programming would be the way to get my foot in the door.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Gregory Junker <***@dayark.com> wrote:

One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to gain
industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you mentioned that
you can't afford a salary decrease, then you probably can't afford an
unstable situation either (which is what most small independent studios will
be, and the ones most likely to hire anyone who sounds like they might know
something about games).



So have you looked at Zynga?



http://www.zynga.com/jobs/



A surprising number of people I have worked with in the past in various
studios have landed there, and it's quite stable. Spend some time at Zynga,
get some industry experience on your resume, and work on your "areas for
improvement" in your spare time like you are now.



One thing to bear in mind, is that any studio who is looking for a graphics
programmer above junior/entry level, is likely doing so because their
current graphics programmer, who is almost certainly rather senior, is
leaving, and they need someone to replace him/her. Therefore, you may need
to set your sights either a bit lower, or on a different target.or choose a
different strategy. It's much easier to get into a games studio as a
gameplay programmer than it is a graphics programmer, and working somewhere
like Zynga can get you demonstrable industry gameplay experience. The
hardest part about getting into games, is actually getting into games; once
in, you're in.



Greg



From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett


Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:33 AM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com

Subject: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers



Hello ladies and gents,



I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
language and OpenGL.



I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about, say,
tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would make
for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.



On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.



- Tommy

[Oystein Eftevaag]

Also something to consider: Most larger-scale games these days use Flash
for their in-game GUIs (see Scaleform), so there's opportunities there
as well.

On 9/20/2011 2:18 PM, Tommy Brett wrote:
> An interesting and informative angle, I did pitch the idea of doing
> some games to my current employer but they're largely inexperienced
> with developing games, and aren't really willing to take the risk.
> Perhaps flash games programming would be the way to get my foot in the
> door.
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Gregory Junker <***@dayark.com
> <mailto:***@dayark.com>> wrote:
>
> One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to
> gain industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you
> mentioned that you can't afford a salary decrease, then you
> probably can't afford an unstable situation either (which is what
> most small independent studios will be, and the ones most likely
> to hire anyone who sounds like they might know something about
> games).
>
> So have you looked at Zynga?
>
> http://www.zynga.com/jobs/
>
> A surprising number of people I have worked with in the past in
> various studios have landed there, and it's quite stable. Spend
> some time at Zynga, get some industry experience on your resume,
> and work on your "areas for improvement" in your spare time like
> you are now.
>
> One thing to bear in mind, is that any studio who is looking for a
> graphics programmer above junior/entry level, is likely doing so
> because their current graphics programmer, who is almost certainly
> rather senior, is leaving, and they need someone to replace
> him/her. Therefore, you may need to set your sights either a bit
> lower, or on a different target...or choose a different strategy.
> It's much easier to get into a games studio as a gameplay
> programmer than it is a graphics programmer, and working somewhere
> like Zynga can get you demonstrable industry gameplay experience.
> The hardest part about getting into games, is actually getting
> into games; once in, you're in.
>
> Greg
>
> *From:*sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> <mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
> [mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> <mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com>] *On Behalf
> Of *Tommy Brett
>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:33 AM
> *To:* sweng-***@midnightryder.com
> <mailto:sweng-***@midnightryder.com>
> *Subject:* [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
> programmers
>
> Hello ladies and gents,
>
> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game
> developer, my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack
> led to an ultimately comfortable existence and a lot of life
> lessons learned, I'm now at the point where my career as a Flash /
> Flex developer is stagnating. It may also be coming to a forced
> end as more and more of my employer's clients move away from Flash
> each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a lot
> of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader
> programming language and OpenGL.
>
> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect
> entry level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e.
> qualifying as something above 'junior' in their job title, even if
> that's just the omission of the word) to be at, and the difference
> between the two. By skill level, I mean knowledge base, for
> example implementing certain shader routines (e.g. normal mapping)
> and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the job search proper, I
> want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact up to par
> as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack
> skill in is using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above
> - by virtue of me still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable
> though, reeeally need to upgrade), and I suspect that not
> being knowledgeable about, say, tessellation using the GPU would
> swiftly kill any application I would make for a graphics
> programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>
> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm
> sending this out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.
>
> - Tommy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> <mailto:Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com

[Megan Fox]

Yep. As a matter of interest, the company I work days for (LEGO / LEGO
Universe) brought on a Flash programmer for their UI work that had 0
previous games experience (but lots of normal dev experience), and it was I
think a salary bump for him, or was at least neutral. In 3 years, he's now
become the senior engineer on the project.

So yes, there is potential to move across without dropping too much salary,
but still, be prepared for it. The smaller or less "cool" the company, the
better your chances of moving across without taking a hit are. (which makes
Zynga in particular a great suggestion for Flash folks - they're more open
to regular developers than, say, an Epic is.)


... as for shader debugging - yeah, graphics programmers don't have a bag of
black magic. Well, we don't when it comes to debugging, at least ;) I use
"turn the pixel red"-esque debugging tricks all the time, and they're
particularly powerful if you're working with a class of hardware that
supports dynamic branching.

PIX is super cool, but I only pull it out for the really gnarly problems.

-megan

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Oystein Eftevaag <***@geheb.com>wrote:

> Also something to consider: Most larger-scale games these days use Flash
> for their in-game GUIs (see Scaleform), so there's opportunities there as
> well.
>
>
> On 9/20/2011 2:18 PM, Tommy Brett wrote:
>
> An interesting and informative angle, I did pitch the idea of doing some
> games to my current employer but they're largely inexperienced with
> developing games, and aren't really willing to take the risk. Perhaps flash
> games programming would be the way to get my foot in the door.
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Gregory Junker <***@dayark.com>wrote:
>
>> One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to gain
>> industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you mentioned that
>> you can’t afford a salary decrease, then you probably can’t afford an
>> unstable situation either (which is what most small independent studios will
>> be, and the ones most likely to hire anyone who sounds like they might know
>> something about games).
>>
>>
>>
>> So have you looked at Zynga?
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.zynga.com/jobs/
>>
>>
>>
>> A surprising number of people I have worked with in the past in various
>> studios have landed there, and it’s quite stable. Spend some time at Zynga,
>> get some industry experience on your resume, and work on your “areas for
>> improvement” in your spare time like you are now.
>>
>>
>>
>> One thing to bear in mind, is that any studio who is looking for a
>> graphics programmer above junior/entry level, is likely doing so because
>> their current graphics programmer, who is almost certainly rather senior, is
>> leaving, and they need someone to replace him/her. Therefore, you may need
>> to set your sights either a bit lower, or on a different target…or choose a
>> different strategy. It’s much easier to get into a games studio as a
>> gameplay programmer than it is a graphics programmer, and working somewhere
>> like Zynga can get you demonstrable industry gameplay experience. The
>> hardest part about getting into games, is actually getting into games; once
>> in, you’re in.
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com [mailto:
>> sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] *On Behalf Of *Tommy Brett
>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:33 AM
>> *To:* sweng-***@midnightryder.com
>> *Subject:* [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
>> programmers
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello ladies and gents,
>>
>>
>>
>> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer,
>> my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
>> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
>> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
>> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
>> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
>> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
>> language and OpenGL.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
>> level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
>> something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
>> omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
>> level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
>> routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
>> job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
>> up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
>> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
>> using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
>> still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
>> upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
>> say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
>> make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
>> out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Tommy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
>>
>> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing listSweng-***@lists.midnightryder.comhttp://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>


--
Megan Fox
http://www.glassbottomgames.com/

[Bryan Wagstaff]

This may seem a bit blunt, but I've been wondering about it sense the start of the discussion.

Why do you want to do a job qualification survey like this? What are you hoping to gain?

Are you looking for permission to apply to a job? You have permission by virtue of them advertising, so go for it! Are you worried that you will be rejected? Apply anyway and let their HR people sort it out.


If you see a job listing and you have approximately the skills and experience they ask for you should apply for the job. Don't agonize that you don't know some obscure tidbit; if the cared about it they would have included it in their requirements.

The employer will look over the applications they recieve, reject those that don't fit what they want, interview a few that remain, and then pick the best fit. Employers are hiring someone to fill a specific need; they only care that you can do the job and that you will fit in with the company.

As a job applicant you should also be asking questions about if you can do the job and will excel at the company.

If your skills and background are the best fit then it really doesn't matter if the word 'junior' or 'senior' is in the job title or not. The details of the job description should indicate what they want. Either you are a good fit or not.

It should be fairly easy to make that decision when you know your background and you read their ad. If you are uncertain then apply anyway. What's the big deal about that? They might simply discard your application. They might call you up, interview you, call you in for a second interview, and then not hire you. Or they might decide that you are the best fit of the applications they received and give you a great job. If you apply there is still a very high statistical chance you won't get hired. If you apply and you don't get a job there is no problem; you tried. If you don't apply then failure is a certainty.

Either you can do the job well, or you cannot do the job well. You won't find out by asking the Internet at large. You find out by talking with the employer and stating your qualifications and negotiating for the job.

If you think you can do it, then apply for the job.

-Bryan.


Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hello ladies and gents,
>
>I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
>career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
>comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
>point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
>be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
>away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
>lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
>language and OpenGL.
>
>I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
>level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
>something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
>omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
>level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
>routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
>job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
>up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
>are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
>using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
>still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
>upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
>say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
>make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>
>On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
>out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.
>
>- Tommy
>
>_______________________________________________
>Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
>http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com

[Tommy Brett]

Doesn't seem blunt at all, I think I worded my first post wrong - A better
question would have been "what separates junior from non-junior" as that's
really the question I'm asking. I want to join the games industry, but I
want to do so in a way that doesn't essentially reset my career if at all
possible. In any case, good point!

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Bryan Wagstaff <***@xmission.com> wrote:

> This may seem a bit blunt, but I've been wondering about it sense the start
> of the discussion.
>
> Why do you want to do a job qualification survey like this? What are you
> hoping to gain?
>
> Are you looking for permission to apply to a job? You have permission by
> virtue of them advertising, so go for it! Are you worried that you will be
> rejected? Apply anyway and let their HR people sort it out.
>
>
> If you see a job listing and you have approximately the skills and
> experience they ask for you should apply for the job. Don't agonize that you
> don't know some obscure tidbit; if the cared about it they would have
> included it in their requirements.
>
> The employer will look over the applications they recieve, reject those
> that don't fit what they want, interview a few that remain, and then pick
> the best fit. Employers are hiring someone to fill a specific need; they
> only care that you can do the job and that you will fit in with the company.
>
> As a job applicant you should also be asking questions about if you can do
> the job and will excel at the company.
>
> If your skills and background are the best fit then it really doesn't
> matter if the word 'junior' or 'senior' is in the job title or not. The
> details of the job description should indicate what they want. Either you
> are a good fit or not.
>
> It should be fairly easy to make that decision when you know your
> background and you read their ad. If you are uncertain then apply anyway.
> What's the big deal about that? They might simply discard your application.
> They might call you up, interview you, call you in for a second interview,
> and then not hire you. Or they might decide that you are the best fit of the
> applications they received and give you a great job. If you apply there is
> still a very high statistical chance you won't get hired. If you apply and
> you don't get a job there is no problem; you tried. If you don't apply then
> failure is a certainty.
>
> Either you can do the job well, or you cannot do the job well. You won't
> find out by asking the Internet at large. You find out by talking with the
> employer and stating your qualifications and negotiating for the job.
>
> If you think you can do it, then apply for the job.
>
> -Bryan.
>
>
>
> Tommy Brett &lt;***@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>
> Hello ladies and gents,
>
> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
> career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
> language and OpenGL.
>
> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
> level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
> something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
> omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
> level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
> routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
> job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
> up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
> using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
> still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
> upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
> say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
> make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>
> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
> out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.
>
> - Tommy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>

[Craig Hoffman]

This doesn't answer the original question but don't overlook "serious game"
development, immersive training development, simulation development, etc.
You don't need to work for a game developer to use game development skills.
Your current skill set might get you a position like these listed below
where you could gain invaluable experience.

http://jobs.saic.com/job/Huntsville-Flash-Game-Programmer-Job-AL-35801/1352496/

http://jobs.saic.com/job/Huntsville-Application-Developer-Job-AL-35801/1404471/

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Doesn't seem blunt at all, I think I worded my first post wrong - A better
> question would have been "what separates junior from non-junior" as that's
> really the question I'm asking. I want to join the games industry, but I
> want to do so in a way that doesn't essentially reset my career if at all
> possible. In any case, good point!
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Bryan Wagstaff <***@xmission.com>wrote:
>
>> This may seem a bit blunt, but I've been wondering about it sense the
>> start of the discussion.
>>
>> Why do you want to do a job qualification survey like this? What are you
>> hoping to gain?
>>
>> Are you looking for permission to apply to a job? You have permission by
>> virtue of them advertising, so go for it! Are you worried that you will be
>> rejected? Apply anyway and let their HR people sort it out.
>>
>>
>> If you see a job listing and you have approximately the skills and
>> experience they ask for you should apply for the job. Don't agonize that you
>> don't know some obscure tidbit; if the cared about it they would have
>> included it in their requirements.
>>
>> The employer will look over the applications they recieve, reject those
>> that don't fit what they want, interview a few that remain, and then pick
>> the best fit. Employers are hiring someone to fill a specific need; they
>> only care that you can do the job and that you will fit in with the company.
>>
>> As a job applicant you should also be asking questions about if you can do
>> the job and will excel at the company.
>>
>> If your skills and background are the best fit then it really doesn't
>> matter if the word 'junior' or 'senior' is in the job title or not. The
>> details of the job description should indicate what they want. Either you
>> are a good fit or not.
>>
>> It should be fairly easy to make that decision when you know your
>> background and you read their ad. If you are uncertain then apply anyway.
>> What's the big deal about that? They might simply discard your application.
>> They might call you up, interview you, call you in for a second interview,
>> and then not hire you. Or they might decide that you are the best fit of the
>> applications they received and give you a great job. If you apply there is
>> still a very high statistical chance you won't get hired. If you apply and
>> you don't get a job there is no problem; you tried. If you don't apply then
>> failure is a certainty.
>>
>> Either you can do the job well, or you cannot do the job well. You won't
>> find out by asking the Internet at large. You find out by talking with the
>> employer and stating your qualifications and negotiating for the job.
>>
>> If you think you can do it, then apply for the job.
>>
>> -Bryan.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tommy Brett &lt;***@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>>
>> Hello ladies and gents,
>>
>> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer,
>> my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
>> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
>> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
>> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
>> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
>> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
>> language and OpenGL.
>>
>> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
>> level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
>> something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
>> omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
>> level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
>> routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
>> job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
>> up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
>> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
>> using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
>> still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
>> upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
>> say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
>> make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>>
>> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
>> out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.
>>
>> - Tommy
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
>>
>> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>

[Tommy Brett]

Funny thing is I know a few guys who work for a serious games company and it
never even occurred to me that there might be more, how short sighted of me,
thanks Craig!

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 9:11 PM, Craig Hoffman <***@gmail.com>wrote:

> This doesn't answer the original question but don't overlook "serious game"
> development, immersive training development, simulation development, etc.
> You don't need to work for a game developer to use game development skills.
> Your current skill set might get you a position like these listed below
> where you could gain invaluable experience.
>
>
> http://jobs.saic.com/job/Huntsville-Flash-Game-Programmer-Job-AL-35801/1352496/
>
>
> http://jobs.saic.com/job/Huntsville-Application-Developer-Job-AL-35801/1404471/
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Doesn't seem blunt at all, I think I worded my first post wrong - A better
>> question would have been "what separates junior from non-junior" as that's
>> really the question I'm asking. I want to join the games industry, but I
>> want to do so in a way that doesn't essentially reset my career if at all
>> possible. In any case, good point!
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Bryan Wagstaff <***@xmission.com>wrote:
>>
>>> This may seem a bit blunt, but I've been wondering about it sense the
>>> start of the discussion.
>>>
>>> Why do you want to do a job qualification survey like this? What are you
>>> hoping to gain?
>>>
>>> Are you looking for permission to apply to a job? You have permission by
>>> virtue of them advertising, so go for it! Are you worried that you will be
>>> rejected? Apply anyway and let their HR people sort it out.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you see a job listing and you have approximately the skills and
>>> experience they ask for you should apply for the job. Don't agonize that you
>>> don't know some obscure tidbit; if the cared about it they would have
>>> included it in their requirements.
>>>
>>> The employer will look over the applications they recieve, reject those
>>> that don't fit what they want, interview a few that remain, and then pick
>>> the best fit. Employers are hiring someone to fill a specific need; they
>>> only care that you can do the job and that you will fit in with the company.
>>>
>>> As a job applicant you should also be asking questions about if you can
>>> do the job and will excel at the company.
>>>
>>> If your skills and background are the best fit then it really doesn't
>>> matter if the word 'junior' or 'senior' is in the job title or not. The
>>> details of the job description should indicate what they want. Either you
>>> are a good fit or not.
>>>
>>> It should be fairly easy to make that decision when you know your
>>> background and you read their ad. If you are uncertain then apply anyway.
>>> What's the big deal about that? They might simply discard your application.
>>> They might call you up, interview you, call you in for a second interview,
>>> and then not hire you. Or they might decide that you are the best fit of the
>>> applications they received and give you a great job. If you apply there is
>>> still a very high statistical chance you won't get hired. If you apply and
>>> you don't get a job there is no problem; you tried. If you don't apply then
>>> failure is a certainty.
>>>
>>> Either you can do the job well, or you cannot do the job well. You won't
>>> find out by asking the Internet at large. You find out by talking with the
>>> employer and stating your qualifications and negotiating for the job.
>>>
>>> If you think you can do it, then apply for the job.
>>>
>>> -Bryan.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tommy Brett &lt;***@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello ladies and gents,
>>>
>>> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer,
>>> my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
>>> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
>>> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
>>> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
>>> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
>>> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
>>> language and OpenGL.
>>>
>>> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
>>> level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
>>> something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
>>> omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
>>> level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
>>> routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
>>> job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
>>> up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
>>> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
>>> using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
>>> still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
>>> upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
>>> say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
>>> make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending
>>> this out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.
>>>
>>> - Tommy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>>> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
>>>
>>> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
>>
>> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>

[Tommy Brett]

And that sounded even more retarded, I meant to say, I hadn't looked when I
really should have. There's been loads of helpful info and suggestions,
thanks a lot folks!

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 9:28 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Funny thing is I know a few guys who work for a serious games company and
> it never even occurred to me that there might be more, how short sighted of
> me, thanks Craig!
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 9:11 PM, Craig Hoffman <***@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> This doesn't answer the original question but don't overlook "serious
>> game" development, immersive training development, simulation development,
>> etc. You don't need to work for a game developer to use game development
>> skills. Your current skill set might get you a position like these listed
>> below where you could gain invaluable experience.
>>
>>
>> http://jobs.saic.com/job/Huntsville-Flash-Game-Programmer-Job-AL-35801/1352496/
>>
>>
>> http://jobs.saic.com/job/Huntsville-Application-Developer-Job-AL-35801/1404471/
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Doesn't seem blunt at all, I think I worded my first post wrong - A
>>> better question would have been "what separates junior from non-junior" as
>>> that's really the question I'm asking. I want to join the games industry,
>>> but I want to do so in a way that doesn't essentially reset my career if at
>>> all possible. In any case, good point!
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Bryan Wagstaff <***@xmission.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> This may seem a bit blunt, but I've been wondering about it sense the
>>>> start of the discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you want to do a job qualification survey like this? What are you
>>>> hoping to gain?
>>>>
>>>> Are you looking for permission to apply to a job? You have permission by
>>>> virtue of them advertising, so go for it! Are you worried that you will be
>>>> rejected? Apply anyway and let their HR people sort it out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you see a job listing and you have approximately the skills and
>>>> experience they ask for you should apply for the job. Don't agonize that you
>>>> don't know some obscure tidbit; if the cared about it they would have
>>>> included it in their requirements.
>>>>
>>>> The employer will look over the applications they recieve, reject those
>>>> that don't fit what they want, interview a few that remain, and then pick
>>>> the best fit. Employers are hiring someone to fill a specific need; they
>>>> only care that you can do the job and that you will fit in with the company.
>>>>
>>>> As a job applicant you should also be asking questions about if you can
>>>> do the job and will excel at the company.
>>>>
>>>> If your skills and background are the best fit then it really doesn't
>>>> matter if the word 'junior' or 'senior' is in the job title or not. The
>>>> details of the job description should indicate what they want. Either you
>>>> are a good fit or not.
>>>>
>>>> It should be fairly easy to make that decision when you know your
>>>> background and you read their ad. If you are uncertain then apply anyway.
>>>> What's the big deal about that? They might simply discard your application.
>>>> They might call you up, interview you, call you in for a second interview,
>>>> and then not hire you. Or they might decide that you are the best fit of the
>>>> applications they received and give you a great job. If you apply there is
>>>> still a very high statistical chance you won't get hired. If you apply and
>>>> you don't get a job there is no problem; you tried. If you don't apply then
>>>> failure is a certainty.
>>>>
>>>> Either you can do the job well, or you cannot do the job well. You won't
>>>> find out by asking the Internet at large. You find out by talking with the
>>>> employer and stating your qualifications and negotiating for the job.
>>>>
>>>> If you think you can do it, then apply for the job.
>>>>
>>>> -Bryan.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tommy Brett &lt;***@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello ladies and gents,
>>>>
>>>> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer,
>>>> my career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
>>>> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
>>>> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
>>>> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
>>>> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
>>>> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
>>>> language and OpenGL.
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
>>>> level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
>>>> something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
>>>> omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
>>>> level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
>>>> routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
>>>> job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
>>>> up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
>>>> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
>>>> using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
>>>> still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
>>>> upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
>>>> say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
>>>> make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending
>>>> this out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.
>>>>
>>>> - Tommy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>>>> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>>> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
>>>
>>> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
>> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
>>
>> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>>
>>
>

[Jon Watte]

Why do you want to work in games when there is investment banking?
Seriously?

If you still have to do games, then you should probably pick up a few recent
books on the area you're interested in -- gpu gems, game engine gems, that
sort of thing -- and compare your chops with the articles in those books.
Making sure that you understand each article is actually a good thing -- you
don't need to memorize each technique, but you need to have the basics that
allow you to understand them.

For graphics, this includes a good grasp of basic linear algebra,
matrices/vectors/quaternions, what they represent, and how to use them to
solve problems. "I want to attach animated bone A from the Flaming Sword of
Fire to animated bone B of the character's hand -- what order do I do what
operations in?"
Also make sure you understand row-vectors-on-left vs
column-vectors-on-right!
I imagine understanding different BRDFs would be useful too, as well as the
limitations of various graphics cards (how high is the latency of vertex
texture fetch; how many separate vertex channels can they do before
degrading, etc), as well as the tools in the technology of your choice (Xbox
PIX, gDebugger, whatever)

A totally different skill you should pick up is understanding the art
pipeline -- pick up some Max or Maya chops; learn how layering and blending
works in Photoshop; build an exporter that can go from Zbrush to your own
graphics engine. Buy some art or ask a friend if you don't know how to
actually model yourself.

So, other than making sure you know the basics enough that you understand
the book articles, perhaps just biting the bullet and putting together a
game demo of some sort would be useful.

There's lots more -- low-level knowledge of caching, memory, CPU/GPU
parallelism, etc. Mid-level knowledge of how rigid body dynamics interact
with graphics presentation, and how to structure a threaded, data-streaming
application. High-level knowledge of how to achieve whatever goal the artist
wants to achieve, and how to present a set of tools that makes sense to
artists. Showing up on time (!) and treating everyone you work with with
respect (!) and honesty (!) The list goes on :-)

Also, I have written scene graph and rendering and art pipeline code used in
a variety of shipping games and virtual worlds, but my title has never been
"graphics programmer." Being in a narrow niche may not actually be the best
way to get where you want to go!

Sincerely,

jw


--
Americans might object: there is no way we would sacrifice our living
standards for the benefit of people in the rest of the world. Nevertheless,
whether we get there willingly or not, we shall soon have lower consumption
rates, because our present rates are unsustainable.



On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 7:32 AM, Tommy Brett <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello ladies and gents,
>
> I graduated 5 years ago with the intention of becoming a game developer, my
> career got sidetracked and although this sidetrack led to an ultimately
> comfortable existence and a lot of life lessons learned, I'm now at the
> point where my career as a Flash / Flex developer is stagnating. It may also
> be coming to a forced end as more and more of my employer's clients move
> away from Flash each month. I've been keeping up with the times, and doing a
> lot of graphics programming on the side using nVidia's CG shader programming
> language and OpenGL.
>
> I'm looking for a little insight into what skill level you expect entry
> level, and reasonably competent graphics programmers (i.e. qualifying as
> something above 'junior' in their job title, even if that's just the
> omission of the word) to be at, and the difference between the two. By skill
> level, I mean knowledge base, for example implementing certain shader
> routines (e.g. normal mapping) and grasp of mathematics. Before I enter the
> job search proper, I want to make absolutely sure that my skills are in fact
> up to par as I understand that graphics programming positions in particular
> are highly competitive. For example, I know that one area I lack skill in is
> using shader functions built for DirectX 10 and above - by virtue of me
> still using an XP machine (GPU is DX10 capable though, reeeally need to
> upgrade), and I suspect that not being knowledgeable about,
> say, tessellation using the GPU would swiftly kill any application I would
> make for a graphics programmer role that paid more than free lunches.
>
> On the other hand, this may not be the case, which is why I'm sending this
> out to you better informed guys for a little feedback.
>
> - Tommy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>

[l***@gmail.com]

That sounds like a lot of information that you'd learn after years of working on games. I hate to say it but really unless the original poster is an absolute genius or willing to put in many months of hard work he's just going to have to start in entry level.
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Watte <***@gmail.com>
Sender: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.comDate: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:35:15
To: <sweng-***@midnightryder.com>
Reply-To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers

[Alen Ladavac]

_______________________________________________
Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com

[Massimo Del Zotto]

I'm interested in that.
Back when I was in Uni, I tried without success to satisfy both academic
requirements and real life needs. I eventually figured out I needed to drop
one to focus on the other.
I think nobody is interested in average people. Statistics are rather clear
on what an 'average' programmer is.

I'd like to hear other elaborations on this experience-materializing demo
proof.

Thank you
Massimo Del Zotto

2011/9/25 Alen Ladavac <alenl-***@croteam.com>

> Starting level presumes _at least_ many months of hard work. If not
> years. Advanced is decades of hard work. We were previously open to
> discussing with people out of uni even if they had no previous experience,
> but lately - my stance is that if you don't want to invest into making a
> demo, then you probably won't have the will to stick to it in the project.
> We are talking about gamedev programming, not run of the mill web apps,
> right? Most of those who are really talented do their demos either just for
> kicks, or for assignments, even during the uni. Those who don't are suspect
> for "not really interested" in my book. Good people are into this for the
> experience not just for money. JM2C....
>
>
> Sunday, September 25, 2011, 4:51:26 PM, you wrote:
>
> *> That sounds like a lot of information that you'd learn after years of
> working on games. I hate to say it but really unless the original poster is
> an absolute genius or willing to put in many months of hard work he's just
> going to have to start in entry level.
> > Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jon Watte <*
> ***@gmail.com*>
> > Sender: *sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.comDate*: Sat, 24 Sep
> 2011 21:35:15
> > To: <*sweng-***@midnightryder.com*>
> > Reply-To: *sweng-***@midnightryder.com
>
> *> Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
> > programmers
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> *> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com<Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
> >
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com<http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com>
>
>
> *> _______________________________________________
> > Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> *> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com<Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
> >
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com<http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com>
>
>
>
> *--
> Best regards,
> Alen *mailto:alenl-***@croteam.com<alenl-***@croteam.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com
> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com
>
>

[Greg Stelmack]

On the game demo, having one shows:


1) An actual interest in making games. Anecdotally the best game programmers seem to be those who also like to code for fun. If you really want into the game industry, you're going to be making games anyway. Even if it's a simple solitaire or Yahtzee game, you're probably doing SOMETHING to mess around with. It shows a true interest, separate from those who think "I want to make cool graphics!" or "game programming would be fun, you get to play games all day, right?" folks.

2) The ability to complete a project. Lots of folks don't seem to know what it takes to actually FINISH a title.

I wouldn't say it's a requirement, but it sure helps for those trying to break in.

I would also agree that if money is your main goal, stick with investment banking. Sure, you CAN get rich making games, but the odds are not in your favor. I could be making a ton more money if I had stuck with investment banking (my first job out of school), but not having nearly as much fun.

And finally, I'll echo another point made earlier: game programming != graphics programming. So many budding game programmers seem to think that. There are sound programmers, physics programmers, AI programmers, UI programmers, network programmers, tools programmers, lots of jobs that never touch graphics, and some that touch it occasionally. Games are far more than just pretty graphics, despite what reviewers and much of the buying public seem to say...

From: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com [mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Massimo Del Zotto
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 2:37 AM
To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

I'm interested in that.
Back when I was in Uni, I tried without success to satisfy both academic requirements and real life needs. I eventually figured out I needed to drop one to focus on the other.
I think nobody is interested in average people. Statistics are rather clear on what an 'average' programmer is.

I'd like to hear other elaborations on this experience-materializing demo proof.

Thank you
Massimo Del Zotto

2011/9/25 Alen Ladavac <alenl-***@croteam.com<mailto:alenl-***@croteam.com>>
Starting level presumes _at least_ many months of hard work. If not years. Advanced is decades of hard work. We were previously open to discussing with people out of uni even if they had no previous experience, but lately - my stance is that if you don't want to invest into making a demo, then you probably won't have the will to stick to it in the project. We are talking about gamedev programming, not run of the mill web apps, right? Most of those who are really talented do their demos either just for kicks, or for assignments, even during the uni. Those who don't are suspect for "not really interested" in my book. Good people are into this for the experience not just for money. JM2C....


Sunday, September 25, 2011, 4:51:26 PM, you wrote:

> That sounds like a lot of information that you'd learn after years of working on games. I hate to say it but really unless the original poster is an absolute genius or willing to put in many months of hard work he's just going to have to start in entry level.
> Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Watte <
***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>>
> Sender: sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.comDate<mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.comDate>: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:35:15
> To: <sweng-***@midnightryder.com<mailto:sweng-***@midnightryder.com>>
> Reply-To: sweng-***@midnightryder.com<mailto:sweng-***@midnightryder.com>

> Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
> programmers

> _______________________________________________
> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list
> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com<mailto:Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "lists.midnightryder.com" claiming to be > http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com<http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com>


> _______________________________________________
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> Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com<mailto:Sweng-***@lists.midnightryder.com>
MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "lists.midnightryder.com" claiming to be > http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com<http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com>


--
Best regards,
Alen mailto:alenl-***@croteam.com

[Sylvain Vignaud]

Hi,

Some thing I'd like to see in graphic programmer applicant's demos:
- not the basic anyone-can-do demo (it has to have more than an altered d3d sample with basic texturing and lighting).

- nice-looking results. Better if it shows high-end technics (be it in shadowing or a deferred renderer, or an advanced animation system or some special effects).
- some of the demos finished/polished enough: bug-free, robust, easy to use.
- has to show performances were taken into account: good perfs, tools showing profiling info, not eating too much memory...
- showing abilities to use multiple threads would be a plus.
- Attempt at building a nice architecture (nice as in well-thought, not as in over-engineered/too complex).
- Interest in other side-/home-projects, not related to games nor graphics.




From:
sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-***@lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Massimo
Del Zotto



I'm interested in that.



Back when I was in Uni, I tried without success to satisfy
both academic requirements and real life needs. I eventually figured out I
needed to drop one to focus on the other.





I think nobody is interested in average people. Statistics
are rather clear on what an 'average' programmer is.











I'd like to hear other elaborations on this
experience-materializing demo proof.











Thank you





Massimo Del Zotto